Hello Nick (and Megan, by proxy)! Just a quick consideration: no language is “incorrect” except against the stick by which it is measured. “Traditional” English may say that “ain’t” ain’t a word, but “ain't” is simply part of a vernacular that is not “traditional” English. That is to say: “traditional” English may be the wrong measuring stick.
This is an important note because we can easily and accidentally veer hard into classism and even racism when we start policing vernaculars (like AAVE) with the rod of “traditional” English. It is simply not that, and not intended to be that. To insist that all English must conform to “traditional” rules is—in those cases—essentially insisting that one must strip away their culture in order to fit in with “proper society”. I hope the expectation of that kind of conformation is a notion that we can eagerly reject.
I have to respectfully disagree with Megan regarding your "there's a ton of apps" statement. You were actually correct in that usage, as from a true grammatical standpoint "there's" refers to the word "ton" which is singular. Sure "there are" apps a plenty, but when they tip the scale far enough "there's" a ton. Anxious to hear your thoughts!
I appreciate your thoughts very much. One thing I want to add is my absolute shock that the list of books being regularly banned in many states in this country is to me, THE READING LIST I WOULD PROVIDE MY CHILDREN. Was there talk this weekend about book banning and in turn, all of that valuable KNOWLEDGE banning? As much as the elegance of proper language matters and enhances insight and intellect - the ideas, the mental word pictures, the historical knowledge, the representation of diversity and the poetry of common human experience being shattered and potentially lost to generations due to the prohibition of certain ‘kinds’ of books will surely instigate an even quicker and perhaps irreversible disintegration of democracy.
Dear Nick, as a linguist I also bemoan the improper use of grammar and language. One of my major irks is the loss of the adverb (Drive safe! We need to do this as quick as possible. Argh!). When I complain to my professor about such things, he says language by its nature is always evolving and what was unacceptable once is now commonplace and we should just accept that. For example, as a kid I wasn't allowed to say 'I'm good' it had to be 'I'm well'. And you couldn't start a sentence with a conjunction. However, I think we need to be sensitive when correcting others' speech and grammar that it isn't done in a way that says I'm clearly intellectually superior to you. I remember a student with a mild intellectual disability, comparing when someone corrected her grammar to a wealthy person going up to a homeless person in the street and showing them their bank balance. Sadly, grammar and how to write well isn't taught in schools anymore and I doubt many students when they graduate could list the eight parts of speech, so they are hardly to blame.
As an Australian, we are used to Americanisms creeping into our language but I was interested to read that the popular Australian children's TV program 'Bluey' is influencing the speech of American children who have started to use words like 'dunny' for toilet and 'brekkie' for breakfast. I love it.
Cheers, and thank you for your thought provoking posts.
Yassas - an Cretaceous Aussie Outsider - that's a substack I would definitely read. Use this comment as your first article template, and pepper your substack with Kriti images from your point of view. That's an enticing reading prospect.
Kalimera Ovi Once Kenobi! Thank you for your delightful message. I should write about my experience here and the lives of the locals because there’s some fascinating stories to tell. I never meet other Australians but met a couple of Kiwis at the market in Moires recently. I’m on the bus right now to Heraklion to sort some visa issues. I’m applying for the Golden Visa but doing anything involving the public service in Greece is like walking through glue. Public servants here appear to hate their job and they just want you to go away. I think the Greeks invented bureaucracy but they have in no way perfected it! But I love it here. I was stuck here for 11 months in 2020 when Australia closed its borders. While this was a big hassle for a lot of Aussies stuck overseas I couldn’t have been happier. I’ve bought a piece of land here near the village of Lentas and will build a small house once the visa issues are sorted. So lovely to meet you Ovi Once. Please say g’day to your daughter.
Thank you for replying. It's a lost habit. Nevertheless, most of the times essential in meaningless (depending on criteria) social media construct and PR stunts.
I lived a short time ( young and relatively broke- now I'm just older, still broke, but at least more indebted). 30 yrs ago. Before the affordability and inadvertent ethnographic and ecological subversion became a popular goal.
I planned in visiting Crete , but my brownian influenced life path precluded that.
So an outsider view, narrative and imagery ( phone is fine) would be an attractive outlet. That's beyond the glamorous or touristy or ( mostly tragic ) news model.
"Public servants here appear to hate their job and they just want you to go away." - can confirm. Fun fact . It's even true.
"I think the Greeks invented bureaucracy but they have in no way perfected it!". Actually that's the perfected version of bureaucracy. Before Kafka !!!
" But I love it here" - hence the potential great potential of stories that stem from it and apparent contradictions for a non local , that can interpret and ponder on .
And that's how Australia lost a voice ... and Crete gained one.?
Astute and imbued with professional understanding..
"However, I think we need to be sensitive when correcting others' speech and grammar that it isn't done in a way that says I'm clearly intellectually superior to you"
Here, I think it's just wishful thinking.
Nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, it drives change. Slowly or abruptly, depending on the crowds mood.
Let's hope that your comment will be read.
Bluey influences my daughter. And I love it. French Canada. I am now addressed with c'mon mate" instead of "c'mon dude" .
I hope my message will reach you, because my donkey thought weren't (!) aligned with the owner of the donkey thoughts, and got kicked (dissent is easier to be eliminated than counter - argumented)
If you start a substack with a tiered pricing ( my gold is not as valuable as the value of my work) , I would definitely subscribe.
PSS . Bluey beats Peppa Pig any given day .
Barbarian at the gates underrated movie is prescient.
( English is my fourth language, thank you for being compassionately understanding and not a stickler). Volens- nolens, english becoming a lingua franca is a fact, but the de facto empire grammar is becoming the lithographic version template.
My goal is to make thinking sexy. I want to see people carrying clear handbags to show off the book they are reading rather than the label for which they overpaid. I'd like book clubs to have more members than reality TV audiences. Any suggestions to help me succeed in achieving this rather lofty goal?
Nick, Just wanted to let you know, in reference to your post on Thursday the city of DePere, WI is pronounced DePeer! You mistakenly pronounced DePear. I didn't want to be a pill about this but after you posted today about language clarity, I thought you might appreciate the correction. Have a spectacular Labor Day! Posting from sleepy Tomah, WI.
Paula, my wife and I attend several Portland (Maine) Sea Dogs (Red Sox double A affiliate) games every season. One of our favorite new between innings videos they put up on the score board is getting several players to try and pronounce Maine town names like Machias, Orono and Damariscotta. Usually one of the players gets it right and the fans erupt with applause.
Weird Al has a great song called Word Crimes that this post made me think of.
But there’s also something to be said about tolerating grammatical errors, because aside from being annoying, they’re some of the main driving forces behind the evolution of language.
Webster added ‘figuratively’ or ‘virtually’ as a second definition to ‘literally’ some time ago, because it reflects current usage. And yeah that stings, but wasn’t it a joy to hear Chris Traeger use it that way in Parks and Rec?
I agree … Written spelling and grammatical errors make my toes curl but I think the spoken word is different. Speech is expression and how we speak says much more than the words alone can. I’m also going to put out a plea to acknowledge the knowledge that never made it to print but has been passed down through the generations orally.
I do admire your commitment to promoting good use of language and look forward to all your output in this regard. I often wish I had your command of English and I frequently have to reach for the dictionary when listening to your donkey thoughts be they in book form or on sub-stack. I enjoy language, used correctly and when it is more colloquial. There are a fair few phrases in my local dialect that could be deemed entirely incorrect. The phrase - Where’s it too? Meaning - where is that? or Backalong meaning any time in the past. I mean, I think you are right in promoting properly spoken English, but I also reckon on allowing for the many local derivations to flourish. I mean the evolution of language is how we got other languages and in the shorter term how dialects like Creole came to be.
I recently read Where the dear and the antelope play which was very enjoyable. I am currently reading The Hidden life of trees, from your recommendation, which is definitely amazing…. I say reading, I mean listening as I only really listen to Audiobooks nowadays. I should find time to return to turning pages again. In fact, I made a commitment to this when visiting my pa this weekend. We had just started the new Rings of power series and we both agreed that we should revisit the Lord of the rings books and to not listen but actually read them in analogue from. Are you a fan of Tolkein? If yes, when did you first read his book/s and which character did you imagine yourself as? I apologise if this is a bit of low brow question!
I'll be forever glad that my mother fostered my love of reading. I'm a prolific reader - I'm up to 270 books so far this year, so prolific would be putting it mildly. I'm a huge advocate for literacy promotion, and I love that you created this post for so many reasons. I'm also a grammar snob, so I totally get your wife's vibe. ;-)
My aunt always told us not to end a sentence with a preposition. So, we might ask "where's it at?" And be corrected into asking "where's it at... asshole?"
Wow love this Donkey thought Nick the book library sounded great and I learn something new every read of the Donkey (and occasional listen) your posts and creep towards being "Erudite-ficated" myself lol. And thanks to your lovely wife the very "Highbrow" Megan. Who via you haseth bestowed upon me the Erudite that 'Highbrow' is a synonym AND Colloquial of being Erudite itself and I now hope I am not becoming pedantic but casting more of a perspicacious shadow in your mind when you conjure up thoughts of me, lol.
Or to be more Colloquial "Alright Y'all, this thinking has given me a head like a busted easter egg".
You know Nick even when your sitting quietly sullenly outside Lag'U'vulin on new years eve I could just sit and watch your for a at least a whole hour lol and cant wait to see your new ads in Fall.
Do you think "eat shit and die" would be on the books as a "Colloquial of magnitude"? Lol.
Ive added this bit after watching the video. I'm coming across this a lot myself and speak dreadfully due to my N.Irish Spakin words lol. But I have started a TEFL couse as im moving too Toledo on 5th Oct to be with my Spanish girlfriend and I literally feel like im learning English all over again and need ti take the same stand point as Megan in order to correct my students. Given that I used to teach computer studies and with regards to your laptop pings just "chuck it oout the windy" lol
Actually. you were correct when you said, "there's a ton of app..." since ton is singular in your statement.
But the bigger issue that I think should be addressed is the terrible decline we see in all forms of our communication. Captions with spelling errors, subject-verb confusions, and so on are appearing more and more on the news stories I (reluctantly) watch on live television. How can the capitol building of Texas be misidentified as the capitol building of the United States? My mind is filled with other examples. Do we not have editors and copywriters anymore? Don't get me started on ordinary day to day conversations between supposedly well-educated people.
Not only are we losing the habit of reading, but we are also losing the art of reading for understanding. Rather, too many of us just let some "face" yell at us from the TV set, the bloggers, the face bookers, the tweeters, etc.
You are doing good work, and I really appreciate the craftsmanship of what you are presenting. Keep it up!
Dear sir, I wanted to let you know, after your discussion about Wendell Berry, I bought Jaber Crow. It has transformed how I think about the world. Thank you. Regards, Chris
Hello Nick (and Megan, by proxy)! Just a quick consideration: no language is “incorrect” except against the stick by which it is measured. “Traditional” English may say that “ain’t” ain’t a word, but “ain't” is simply part of a vernacular that is not “traditional” English. That is to say: “traditional” English may be the wrong measuring stick.
This is an important note because we can easily and accidentally veer hard into classism and even racism when we start policing vernaculars (like AAVE) with the rod of “traditional” English. It is simply not that, and not intended to be that. To insist that all English must conform to “traditional” rules is—in those cases—essentially insisting that one must strip away their culture in order to fit in with “proper society”. I hope the expectation of that kind of conformation is a notion that we can eagerly reject.
TLDR: different ain’t always wrong.
I have to respectfully disagree with Megan regarding your "there's a ton of apps" statement. You were actually correct in that usage, as from a true grammatical standpoint "there's" refers to the word "ton" which is singular. Sure "there are" apps a plenty, but when they tip the scale far enough "there's" a ton. Anxious to hear your thoughts!
I appreciate your thoughts very much. One thing I want to add is my absolute shock that the list of books being regularly banned in many states in this country is to me, THE READING LIST I WOULD PROVIDE MY CHILDREN. Was there talk this weekend about book banning and in turn, all of that valuable KNOWLEDGE banning? As much as the elegance of proper language matters and enhances insight and intellect - the ideas, the mental word pictures, the historical knowledge, the representation of diversity and the poetry of common human experience being shattered and potentially lost to generations due to the prohibition of certain ‘kinds’ of books will surely instigate an even quicker and perhaps irreversible disintegration of democracy.
Dear Nick, as a linguist I also bemoan the improper use of grammar and language. One of my major irks is the loss of the adverb (Drive safe! We need to do this as quick as possible. Argh!). When I complain to my professor about such things, he says language by its nature is always evolving and what was unacceptable once is now commonplace and we should just accept that. For example, as a kid I wasn't allowed to say 'I'm good' it had to be 'I'm well'. And you couldn't start a sentence with a conjunction. However, I think we need to be sensitive when correcting others' speech and grammar that it isn't done in a way that says I'm clearly intellectually superior to you. I remember a student with a mild intellectual disability, comparing when someone corrected her grammar to a wealthy person going up to a homeless person in the street and showing them their bank balance. Sadly, grammar and how to write well isn't taught in schools anymore and I doubt many students when they graduate could list the eight parts of speech, so they are hardly to blame.
As an Australian, we are used to Americanisms creeping into our language but I was interested to read that the popular Australian children's TV program 'Bluey' is influencing the speech of American children who have started to use words like 'dunny' for toilet and 'brekkie' for breakfast. I love it.
Cheers, and thank you for your thought provoking posts.
Yassas - an Cretaceous Aussie Outsider - that's a substack I would definitely read. Use this comment as your first article template, and pepper your substack with Kriti images from your point of view. That's an enticing reading prospect.
Kalimera Ovi Once Kenobi! Thank you for your delightful message. I should write about my experience here and the lives of the locals because there’s some fascinating stories to tell. I never meet other Australians but met a couple of Kiwis at the market in Moires recently. I’m on the bus right now to Heraklion to sort some visa issues. I’m applying for the Golden Visa but doing anything involving the public service in Greece is like walking through glue. Public servants here appear to hate their job and they just want you to go away. I think the Greeks invented bureaucracy but they have in no way perfected it! But I love it here. I was stuck here for 11 months in 2020 when Australia closed its borders. While this was a big hassle for a lot of Aussies stuck overseas I couldn’t have been happier. I’ve bought a piece of land here near the village of Lentas and will build a small house once the visa issues are sorted. So lovely to meet you Ovi Once. Please say g’day to your daughter.
G'day,
Thank you for replying. It's a lost habit. Nevertheless, most of the times essential in meaningless (depending on criteria) social media construct and PR stunts.
I lived a short time ( young and relatively broke- now I'm just older, still broke, but at least more indebted). 30 yrs ago. Before the affordability and inadvertent ethnographic and ecological subversion became a popular goal.
I planned in visiting Crete , but my brownian influenced life path precluded that.
So an outsider view, narrative and imagery ( phone is fine) would be an attractive outlet. That's beyond the glamorous or touristy or ( mostly tragic ) news model.
"Public servants here appear to hate their job and they just want you to go away." - can confirm. Fun fact . It's even true.
"I think the Greeks invented bureaucracy but they have in no way perfected it!". Actually that's the perfected version of bureaucracy. Before Kafka !!!
" But I love it here" - hence the potential great potential of stories that stem from it and apparent contradictions for a non local , that can interpret and ponder on .
And that's how Australia lost a voice ... and Crete gained one.?
Astute and imbued with professional understanding..
"However, I think we need to be sensitive when correcting others' speech and grammar that it isn't done in a way that says I'm clearly intellectually superior to you"
Here, I think it's just wishful thinking.
Nothing wrong with that. On the contrary, it drives change. Slowly or abruptly, depending on the crowds mood.
Let's hope that your comment will be read.
Bluey influences my daughter. And I love it. French Canada. I am now addressed with c'mon mate" instead of "c'mon dude" .
I hope my message will reach you, because my donkey thought weren't (!) aligned with the owner of the donkey thoughts, and got kicked (dissent is easier to be eliminated than counter - argumented)
If you start a substack with a tiered pricing ( my gold is not as valuable as the value of my work) , I would definitely subscribe.
PSS . Bluey beats Peppa Pig any given day .
Barbarian at the gates underrated movie is prescient.
( English is my fourth language, thank you for being compassionately understanding and not a stickler). Volens- nolens, english becoming a lingua franca is a fact, but the de facto empire grammar is becoming the lithographic version template.
I here you.
Brakes my hart.
Butt, lede bye example,
it seams the best thin too due?
How so ever, undo pretentiousness one must eschew,
No matter how clever.
But, not all ways.
oui?
Brilliant.
My goal is to make thinking sexy. I want to see people carrying clear handbags to show off the book they are reading rather than the label for which they overpaid. I'd like book clubs to have more members than reality TV audiences. Any suggestions to help me succeed in achieving this rather lofty goal?
Nick, Just wanted to let you know, in reference to your post on Thursday the city of DePere, WI is pronounced DePeer! You mistakenly pronounced DePear. I didn't want to be a pill about this but after you posted today about language clarity, I thought you might appreciate the correction. Have a spectacular Labor Day! Posting from sleepy Tomah, WI.
Paula, my wife and I attend several Portland (Maine) Sea Dogs (Red Sox double A affiliate) games every season. One of our favorite new between innings videos they put up on the score board is getting several players to try and pronounce Maine town names like Machias, Orono and Damariscotta. Usually one of the players gets it right and the fans erupt with applause.
Is that Toe-ma? Tom-ah? WI.
It is indeed Toe-ma! Thank your asking.
Toe-mah
*From a woman who grew up in Madison, WI 😉
That were a great video.
Nick,
It sounds as if we may have the same grandparents.
Regards,
S
Weird Al has a great song called Word Crimes that this post made me think of.
But there’s also something to be said about tolerating grammatical errors, because aside from being annoying, they’re some of the main driving forces behind the evolution of language.
Webster added ‘figuratively’ or ‘virtually’ as a second definition to ‘literally’ some time ago, because it reflects current usage. And yeah that stings, but wasn’t it a joy to hear Chris Traeger use it that way in Parks and Rec?
I agree … Written spelling and grammatical errors make my toes curl but I think the spoken word is different. Speech is expression and how we speak says much more than the words alone can. I’m also going to put out a plea to acknowledge the knowledge that never made it to print but has been passed down through the generations orally.
Hi Nick,
I do admire your commitment to promoting good use of language and look forward to all your output in this regard. I often wish I had your command of English and I frequently have to reach for the dictionary when listening to your donkey thoughts be they in book form or on sub-stack. I enjoy language, used correctly and when it is more colloquial. There are a fair few phrases in my local dialect that could be deemed entirely incorrect. The phrase - Where’s it too? Meaning - where is that? or Backalong meaning any time in the past. I mean, I think you are right in promoting properly spoken English, but I also reckon on allowing for the many local derivations to flourish. I mean the evolution of language is how we got other languages and in the shorter term how dialects like Creole came to be.
I recently read Where the dear and the antelope play which was very enjoyable. I am currently reading The Hidden life of trees, from your recommendation, which is definitely amazing…. I say reading, I mean listening as I only really listen to Audiobooks nowadays. I should find time to return to turning pages again. In fact, I made a commitment to this when visiting my pa this weekend. We had just started the new Rings of power series and we both agreed that we should revisit the Lord of the rings books and to not listen but actually read them in analogue from. Are you a fan of Tolkein? If yes, when did you first read his book/s and which character did you imagine yourself as? I apologise if this is a bit of low brow question!
Corrie Warburton
Dartmoor, Devon, UK
I'll be forever glad that my mother fostered my love of reading. I'm a prolific reader - I'm up to 270 books so far this year, so prolific would be putting it mildly. I'm a huge advocate for literacy promotion, and I love that you created this post for so many reasons. I'm also a grammar snob, so I totally get your wife's vibe. ;-)
My aunt always told us not to end a sentence with a preposition. So, we might ask "where's it at?" And be corrected into asking "where's it at... asshole?"
Words matter!
Jessie
Lombard, IL
Wow love this Donkey thought Nick the book library sounded great and I learn something new every read of the Donkey (and occasional listen) your posts and creep towards being "Erudite-ficated" myself lol. And thanks to your lovely wife the very "Highbrow" Megan. Who via you haseth bestowed upon me the Erudite that 'Highbrow' is a synonym AND Colloquial of being Erudite itself and I now hope I am not becoming pedantic but casting more of a perspicacious shadow in your mind when you conjure up thoughts of me, lol.
Or to be more Colloquial "Alright Y'all, this thinking has given me a head like a busted easter egg".
You know Nick even when your sitting quietly sullenly outside Lag'U'vulin on new years eve I could just sit and watch your for a at least a whole hour lol and cant wait to see your new ads in Fall.
Do you think "eat shit and die" would be on the books as a "Colloquial of magnitude"? Lol.
Ive added this bit after watching the video. I'm coming across this a lot myself and speak dreadfully due to my N.Irish Spakin words lol. But I have started a TEFL couse as im moving too Toledo on 5th Oct to be with my Spanish girlfriend and I literally feel like im learning English all over again and need ti take the same stand point as Megan in order to correct my students. Given that I used to teach computer studies and with regards to your laptop pings just "chuck it oout the windy" lol
David from La Porte, Texas-
Actually. you were correct when you said, "there's a ton of app..." since ton is singular in your statement.
But the bigger issue that I think should be addressed is the terrible decline we see in all forms of our communication. Captions with spelling errors, subject-verb confusions, and so on are appearing more and more on the news stories I (reluctantly) watch on live television. How can the capitol building of Texas be misidentified as the capitol building of the United States? My mind is filled with other examples. Do we not have editors and copywriters anymore? Don't get me started on ordinary day to day conversations between supposedly well-educated people.
Not only are we losing the habit of reading, but we are also losing the art of reading for understanding. Rather, too many of us just let some "face" yell at us from the TV set, the bloggers, the face bookers, the tweeters, etc.
You are doing good work, and I really appreciate the craftsmanship of what you are presenting. Keep it up!
Dear sir, I wanted to let you know, after your discussion about Wendell Berry, I bought Jaber Crow. It has transformed how I think about the world. Thank you. Regards, Chris